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Rogues in the Battle for Azeroth Pre-Patch: What’s Changing

It’s finally here: the most awkward month in WoW.
 
With the Battle for Azeroth pre-patch, a.k.a. Patch 8.0.1, landing on July 17, a four-week period begins in which we’re caught in an eerie limbo between the outgoing expansion (Legion) and the incoming one (BfA). All of our rogue class changes will take effect — RIP, beloved artifact weapons! — but we won’t be able to level from 110 to 120, claim our new Azerite traits or experience the full power (and spellbook) of our max-level rogues. We’ll have to wait for Aug. 14 and the official launch of the BfA expansion for that to happen.
 
In the meantime, the next few weird and wild weeks offer a pretty excellent opportunity to get caught up on exactly what’s changing for each rogue spec as we shift into the new expansion. Here’s a brief rundown of resources we recommend if you’re looking for clear and helpful summaries of everything that’s changing in the world of rogue. I’ll keep this list updated with the bestest, most up-to-datest resources I come across; feel free to ping me on Twitter (or hit up the Ravenholdt Twitter account) with recommendations!

Written Guides

Video Guides

(By Infexious of Infexious Gaming)

Expert Analysis

(These are Wowhead articles featuring a Ravenholdt expert panel)

Official Patch Notes

Below is a copypasta of Blizzard’s official pre-patch notes on the rogue changes taking effect July 17:
  • Assassination
    • Many Talents and PvP Talents have been adjusted.
    • New Talents include:
      • Hidden Blades – Every 2 seconds, gain increased damage for your next Fan of Knives, stacking up to 20 times.
      • Poison Bomb – Envenom and Rupture have a chance per combo point spent to smash a vial of poison at the target’s location, creating a pool of acidic death that deals Nature damage over time to all enemies within it.
  • Outlaw
    • Saber Slash is now Sinister Strike.
    • Run Through is now Dispatch.
    • Many Talents and PvP Talents have been adjusted.
    • New Talents include:
      • Blade Rush – Charge to your target with your blades out, dealing great damage to the target and all other nearby enemies. While Blade Flurry is active, damage to nearby enemies is increased. Generates Energy.
      • Loaded Dice – Activating Adrenaline Rush causes your next Roll the Bones to grant at least two matches.
  • Subtlety
    • Many Talents and PvP Talents have been adjusted.
    • New Talents include:
      • Secret Technique – Finishing move that creates shadow clones of yourself. You and your shadow clones deal damage to both the primary target and nearby enemies.
      • Shuriken Tornado – Focus intently, and then release a Shuriken Storm every second for the next 4 seconds.
Finally, for more general information regarding the changes in store for the pre-patch and beyond, it’s hard to beat Wowhead’s comprehensive survival guide.
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Legion Rogue Screenshots From the Ravenholdt Battle for Azeroth Beta Key Giveaway

An impressive 105 of our roguely brethren participated in the first-ever Ravenholdt giveaway, as we dished out Battle for Azeroth beta keys to 15 lucky rogues who submitted screenshots of their character on our Discord. Though most of you didn’t come away with keys in this giveaway, we wanted to thank and acknowledge each of you who took part and submitted screenshots. We were thrilled with the response, and we hope you had fun taking part!

Your screenshots captured moments of victory and failure; of humor and sadness; of accomplishment and ineptitude — the accumulated essence of what it has meant to play a rogue in Legion. We’re proud to share them all in the galleries below for posterity.

Ravenholdt’s Picks (10 Screenshots We Selected to Receive Beta Keys)

Class Fantasy / Submitted by Trucis

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All Rogue Screenshot Submissions

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Some Fires Never Die

fierydmise on final boss episode 66

Fierydemise on Final Boss episode #66 discussing the rogue class in Warlords of Draenor.

When Fierydemise stashed his theoretical daggers in permanent storage last month, my first thought was: “Holy crap. How did it take him this long?”

A pillar of our rogue community for the past five years, FD has been a tireless defender of truth, justice and extensive mathematical rigor dating back to at least 2010, when in his very first official WoW forum post he assailed server faction balance as “absurd.” Trying to keep up with FD — or to top him in a theorycrafting debate — was like running a marathon: You had to be prepared to match him stride for stride until one of you dropped. And it was probably gonna be you who dropped.

My own history with FD began in September 2012, when he appeared in WoW’s official rogue forum out of the blue with a guide on how to play a combat rogue in Mists of Pandaria. Our exchange in that thread is pretty much how most of our conversations went back then: I questioned his sources, he defended his diligence, and we eventually worked out a compromise.

In the years since, I learned there’s no need to question FD’s sources. As he grew from rogue spec guide writer to all-around rogue class expert to one of the leading minds in WoW theorycrafting, what gave FD his strength (and his influence) was an unforgiving dedication to accuracy and rigor, and an unwavering desire to correct errors and ensure rogue players had the best information at their fingertips.

tamen and fierydemise at PAX Prime 2015

Fierydemise (right) with fellow Shadowcraft developer Tamen at PAX Prime in 2015. (Image via Tamen on Twitter)

All of that led him to team up with Haileaus, Paryah and me to create Ravenholdt back in 2014 — and for him to take the reins of Shadowcraft, the rogue class’s most venerable optimization tool, a little over a year later, following in the footsteps of Aldriana and Pathal. Fierydemise hasn’t just been a big part of the conversation among rogue players for years; he’s created the conversation, framed it, led it. Sometimes quite literally, as in the case of one of his greatest achievements, the establishment and growth of our Discord channel. He’s also, as it happens, just a genuinely good human being, with a level of empathy and personal connection that I think many folks tend to assume can’t exist in the deeply analytical mind of a theorycrafter. But it can. In most, it very much does. FD is a shining example.

But a person can’t volunteer their time and their energy to a passion forever, and for FD, the time finally came last month. That it took him this long to reach that point is a testament not just to his own sense of dedication, but also his commitment to the rogue class, the people who play it, and the people who help make our community thrive — not just the leaders you see writing guides or posting blogs or streaming or tweeting, but those who work quietly and behind the scenes as well. FD wouldn’t leave unless he was confident there were quality folks to carry the torch. That’s how quality he is.

But hey, don’t just take my word for it. Here are a few WoW (and rogue) community leaders, both past and present, who wanted to share their own thanks and recollections about one of WoW theorycrafting’s great minds, and one of the rogue class’s greatest, period. I’ll add to this collection as more submissions come in.

Aeriwen, longtime WoW rogue guide writer and theorycrafter

I can’t recall when I first met Fiery. The years have been so many. But with a bit of sleuthing, the earliest interaction that I’ve found between us seems to have been a debate. That seems appropriate. Fiery has been an invaluable leader in our community. His careful commitment to accuracy and due diligence has carried this community for a decade. He leaves big shoes to fill, but he laid behind him a well trodden path for others to follow. It has been a honor to work with him. He has been a wonderful friend and colleague these many years. I do not have to wish him the best because I am certain that he will succeed in his next endeavor. It is in his nature to excel.

Calligraphy, Wowhead developer and recovering monk theorycrafter

FieryDemise always asked me some pretty tough questions, and presented theorycrafting in a way I hadn’t really thought of. I tend to look at things from a more practical standpoint, whereas he really pushed things into a more theoretical standpoint. I’m not as involved with rogue, but I appreciate these types of challenging questions, and that he’s one of those very rare people who will listen to the “other” view without being condescending, even when he disagrees.

Celestalon, a.k.a. Chadd Nervig, Technical Game Designer, WoW

Thanks for all the contributions you made to the community, FD!

Mystler, rogue theorycrafter and Shadowcraft developer

With your “retirement” post offical, I just want to use the opportunity to thank you for all you’ve done. Personally, when I look back at the last few years, I’ve always been a silent listener in Ravenholdt IRC and later Discord. One who has mostly consumed information from trusted people in order to get better, with some “private TC” alongside. It was not until I read your ShadowCraft call for help that I woke up and finally decided to put my passion for the class to good use. I am so happy you welcomed me with open arms and got me started, which helped a lot to overcome my anxiety to work with and for the community.

I can understand your interests have shifted and with another “Thank you” I just want to wish you all the best! 🙂

original ravenholdt logo by fierydemise

The original (and most adorable) Ravenholdt logo, designed by Fierydemise.

Paryah, Ravenholdt co-founder and rogue journalist

Fierydemise. What can I say? Ebullient, brilliant, passionate. We share a love of rogues and classic science fiction. I have loved working with him and will miss him keenly. Salute, FD, you made this community what it is. Whoever gets to work with you in the future is truly fortunate. Best to you.

Pathal, a.k.a. Pins, former rogue theorcrafting leader and Shadowcraft wizard

Out of all the people I worked with on Shadowcraft, no one managed to put up with my shenanigans and idiocy like Fierydemise. He was my sounding board and filter to the rest of the community, and I know all too well how demanding both that position and designing the engine is. Lay back, crack open a beer, and take a breath. You’ve earned it.

Vigilate, veteran top-end rogue raider and PvE streamer

Fiery, I’m sad to see you quit. I remember the first time we chatted was back sometime in mid-late Cata. At the time, I was just looking for people to chat PvE Rogue stuff with, but I ended up finding something more as the past few years have folded out. I’ll always look fondly upon the “OG Ravenholdt” from the MoP days. It was a close knit community, and you were one of the people that made it great.

Responses on Twitter to Fierydemise’s Farewell Message

From Current and Former Community Leaders

Selections From WoW Players

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How Rogue DPS Is Looking in Warlords: Highmaul, Week 1

Week one of Highmaul, the firstest-ever raid in the Draenor-iest expansion we’ve ever had, is complete. How have rogues stacked up against other classes in the not-as-important-as-we-often-make-it-seem DPS category — and how have each of the three rogue specs stacked up against each other?
 
The early verdict is in: Rogues are mostly fine. On some fights, we’re great. On some, we’re subpar. But for the most part, across the seven boss fights that make up Highmaul, rogues finished out the first week of normal and heroic raiding with slightly above-average DPS performance compared to all other DPS classes and specs.
 
 
I’ll bang out a list of highlights later in this post. But first…
 
Let Me Bore You With Some Caveats
 
I’ve spent a pretty depressing amount of time this week looking through the statistics area on Warcraft Logs, which is what formed the basis for virtually all of the conclusions in this bloggy. I’ll provide nerdy details about what I looked at further down in this post — it’ll include links to source materials in case you want to double-check my observations or do your own separate analyses, since I’ll only talk about a fraction of the conclusions a person can probably reach by analyzing this stuff.
 
For those of you who are unfamiliar with Warcraft Logs, it’s a relatively new resource that allows you to upload and analyze combat logs from whatever it is you’re doing in the game (though it’s usually used for raiding). It’s a lot like World of Logs in this respect. Also like WoL, Warcraft Logs — which I really want to call Warclogs but will instead refer to as WCL — allows people to browse through other folks’ logs, and to see which players have the “best” parses in various raid encounters.
 
But WCL also goes a bit beyond WoL in several ways. One of them is the statistics area I referred to, which takes all of the data from every public raid log uploaded to their server, mushes it together, and lets you analyze it in a bunch of different ways I won’t get into here, because there’s a lot of them. If you remember Raidbots from previous expansions, it’s a lot like that, only more customizable.
 
WCL is still growing as a resource, and the statistics it provides will only be as reliable as the data that’s put into it. The more raiders who save their logs and upload them to WCL, the more complete WCL’s data collection will be, the more reliable its statistics will become. It’s gotten enough traction that it’s a reputable source of information, but it can — and, if more people keep using it, will — be better. That’s the first caveat.
 
Still, imperfect or no, it’s arguably the best source of aggregated information on class/spec DPS that we players have easy access to. So it’s where I turned to look at how rogue DPS fared in boss fights during in the first week of Highmaul.
 
I like looking at Week 1 stats for raids. In the first week a raid opens, the people who are raiding tend to be very highly motivated — if they weren’t, they wouldn’t have leveled to 100 and prepped their toons so they’d be ready to bust them up some ogres the same week the raid opened. This also tends to be a group of folks who wants to kill bosses, not make themselves look good. So Week 1 is probably the week in which you’re least likely to see people trying to take advantage of fight mechanics just to pad their DPS meters.
 
However, I think it’s also debatable just how reflective of the “typical raider” these Week 1 pioneers are. For one thing, top raiding guilds usually don’t upload their logs, because they don’t want to give away their strategies to competing guilds. For another, I suspect these players are generally better at playing their class than most of us are; their motivation to raid as soon as it opens often translates to motivation to master their characters and properly prepare for boss fights. So we need to be careful about treating these statistics like they’re a perfect reflection of reality; they’re not.
 
Also, the first week of raiding is the one in which people are the most undergeared. That risks skewing *everything*. Is crappy gear offset by higher average skill level of the players? Who knows. But if, for instance, rogues end up scaling a lot better with gear than other classes do, then these early numbers will underestimate their strength. If the opposite is true… well, then, the opposite would be true. We’ll have to wait and see.
 
“Wait and see” also applies to tuning passes that will inevitably occur — and heck, already have occurred — for some classes and boss fights as WoW’s designers get a better sense for who is looking a little too good and who isn’t looking nearly good enough. That limits the staying power of a lot of these findings; for instance, windwalker monks may look right now like they leave rogues in the dust, but once class changes are applied over the coming days and weeks, that may suddenly no longer be the case.
 
So Here’s What I Did
 
Still, like I said, WCL’s stats are probably the best tool we’ve got to at least get a sense for where we stand on the DPS mountain at the moment. So I looked at our overall numbers, and I looked at how we did on each fight. I looked at normal and heroic modes. And I looked at various points along our  spectrum of crappiness — starting at the 50th percentile, a.k.a. the quintessential “average” rogue, and working up to the 99th percentile, a.k.a. the cream of the crop.
 
I took a lot of screenshots (beware the long load time; it’s a 79MB document) for posterity. I also copied and pasted some of the DPS numbers into a spreadsheet so I could see how each class and spec “ranks” on DPS compared to each other.
 
And Here’s What I Found
 
I’m going to use the 50th percentile normal-mode numbers for these conclusions, because I think they’re most reflective of what the average rogue player might expect to experience. (That said, there’s a pretty high level of similarity between 50th and 95th percentile data, as well as between normal and heroic data.)
  • Among the pure DPS classes (hunters, mages, warlocks and us), rogues are easily the best overall performers across all three class specs.
  • However, generally speaking, we’re not in the same DPS league as several specific DPS specs (most of them hybrids): most notably, windwalker monks, marksmanship hunters, retribution paladins and unholy death knights.
  • The problem in these cases isn’t that rogues are weak. It’s that those specs are unusually strong (possibly too strong) in a large number of boss fights.
  • Nearly every boss fight has one standout rogue spec — one that does demonstrably better than the other two, and that does above-average or better DPS compared to all other classes/specs.
  • Subtlety performed better on DPS overall than assassination or combat: Its average rank among WoW’s 24 DPS specs was 9th, while assassination and combat averaged 12th.
  • Those rankings are very deceiving, though. Subtlety never cracked the top 5 on any fight, but was consistently good in most fights. Assassination and combat were more streaky — for instance, Mut was the #2 DPS spec on Twin Ogron, but #16 on Ko’ragh.
  • Among the three rogue specs, here’s which one appeared to be “best” on each fight in Week 1:
    • Kargath: Subtlety (Mut and combat were below average)
    • Butcher: Subtlety (ditto)
    • Tectus: Combat (Mut and sub were average)
    • Brackenspore: Combat (but only very slightly; all three specs were above average)
    • Twin Ogron: Assassination (then sub, then combat)
    • Ko’ragh: Subtlety (Mut and combat were below average)
    • Mar’gok: Combat (Mut and sub were below average)
  • Assuming you’re equally skilled at all three specs, you will do significantly, noticeably better in Highmaul if you swap specs from fight to fight than if you stick with one spec through the whole thing.
  • However, if you’re better at one spec than the others or simply don’t want to switch, here’s a fun fact: The single spec you choose doesn’t matter. In terms of overall DPS across all seven boss fights combined, the difference between all three specs is just 1%.
  • Rogues have the most diverse spec representation among all of the pure DPS classes. The other three classes have at least one “dead” spec that’s only played by a small fraction of class players. In normal-mode raids, rogues spent 46% of the time in combat spec, 37% of the time in assassination spec and 18% of the time in subtlety spec. (The splits were very similar for heroic mode.)
 
Those are just some highlights I thought were interesting. As I said, please feel free to dive into the screenshots and spreadsheet yourself — or, better yet, do your own swimming around in Warcraft Logs’ statistics — and let’s talk about whatever you find!
 
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Rogue Damage Tuning Rides the Roller Coaster in New WoD Beta Builds

A pair of new Warlords of Draenor beta builds — 18967 and 18973, for those of you keeping score at home — have brought a host of tuning adjustments for the rogue class (among others). Alongside these builds, a series of tweets from technical game designer Chadd “Cobra-thon” Nervig clarified, and explained some of the reasoning behind, several of the changes.

Let’s recap, shall we?

[UPDATE: Celestalon replied to this post by noting that some of the adjustments listed below are already due to be changed in an upcoming beta build. Tuning is fast, furious and fluid in these last couple of weeks before Patch 6.0.2 launches.]

Assassination’s damage appears to have been adjusted upward. Most of its key abilities have gotten roughly 5% stronger since last week, if the datamining is accurate:

  • Mutilate deals 210% weapon damage, up from 200%.
  • Dispatch deals 330% weapon damage, up from 315%.
  • The random-damage component of Venemous Wounds deals damage equivalent to 33.6% of our attack power stat, up from 32%.
  • Envenom damage has been boosted by 5%.

There is one downward shift that affects Assassination: Rupture’s damage has taken an 18% hit.

Combat’s damage appears to have been nudged downward, if the datamining is accurate:

  • Eviscerate’s damage has been reduced by about 18%.
  • Blade Flurry’s damage has been reduced by 25%; it copies 30% of our damage onto nearby targets, down from 40%.
  • Ambush’s damage has been reduced by roughly 18%; it deals 245% weapon damage, down from 300%.

These changes come one week after substantial buffs to Sinister Strike and Revealing Strike; taken together, we’re seeing a notable shift in the proportion of Combat’s overall damage that comes from combo point builders vs. finishers.

On Twitter, incidentally, Celestalon confirmed that the Eviscerate change is meant to bring Combat’s overall damage more in line with their goals, and noted that the Blade Flurry change was intended.

Subtlety’s damage also appears to have been reduced (again), if the datablah is bloo:

  • Last week’s buff to Backstab has been reverted, and then some: It’s now at 145% weapon damage, down from 175% — and also down from 156%, where it had been prior to *last* week’s changes.
  • As noted above, Ambush’s damage has been reduced by about 18%.
  • Also as noted above, Eviscerate damage has been reduced by 18% as well.
  • Also-also as noted (further) above, Rupture damage has gotten an 18% cut.

On Twitter, Celestalon affirmed that heavy slashes to Subtlety were intended; according to him, the spec was performing 15% better than the rest of the pack (except for feral druids, which he said had been similarly overpowered and were also toned downward in this week’s beta builds).

Finally, one all-spec change: Crimson Tempest has been… buffed? We think? Datamining seemed to indicate that the ability had taken an 18% damage reduction, but Celestalon stated that the ability was actually having its up-front and DoT damage *increased* by 50%. Maybe an erroneous tooltip change, given how many other rogue abilities had been chopped by 18% at the same time?

Regardless, if the datamined changes to all three specs are accurate, then the overall adjustments to DPS would be as follows, per Fierydemise:

Keep in mind that regardless of the impact of these particular beta builds, all of these adjustments are part of the designers’ ongoing effort to pull various levers in order to get the performance of all specs and classes within whatever their target range is. Although I often refer to these tweaks as “buffs” and “nerfs,” it’s probably better not to think of them precisely that way, given that balance has to be completely redone in the switch from Mists to Warlords. As with every expansion, the scales are being reset.

Quick closing note: Celestalon also tweeted quite a bit about Death From Above this evening, responding to Fierydemise’s blog post from earlier in the week. The easiest way to see the collection of these — and all of Celestalon’s rogue-related tweets — is to check out @Ravenholdt’s favorites list, which we update whenever we spot a new class-relevant tweet from a member of Blizzard’s WoW team.

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